First Amendment and all that stuff....

[trystan830.livejournal.com]

x-posted from my lj, but it's f-locked over there

*sigh*

here's the deal. as a rule, i don't read Wincest. i've read... three. and two of those? i skipped over the really squicky scene(s). and i don't write it, either. so what am i doing posting on this particular subject? the principal of the thing, and that people really should pay closer attention to what they read.

i'm not going to name names, anonimity is safe here. i've had (at least) two people on my flist (that i know of, anyway) get busted on, ragged on, insulted, nasty comments left in their various ljs because they wrote wincest, and it was properly tagged as such.

here's the deal. proper reading skills are required to read the phrase "Pairing: Sam/Dean"... or whatever your pairing may be. there's also the phrase "Rating: Adult." these are the kind of fics i just scroll right on by, don't stop, just keep going. that's the point of this information in the header. (i'm sure many many people skip over my "gen" or "Dean/OFC; NC-17" fics.)

i don't even read it; so why would i take the time to read through a fic, and then comment, "that's sick!" or "ewww!! they're doing what????" and while i believe there are some things that should not be written by sane, healthy adults, i'm not being forced to read it.

to quote one of my favourite sayings, "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" (Voltaire, it's in my sidebar at my lj)

your LJ counts as freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of expression, freedom of opinions, and freedom of thought. and as well it should be.

any kinds of fic is allowed to be posted here, as long as it has the proper header.

Comments

[bodgei.livejournal.com]

The reseche has shown that people who are offenders are likely to have perused child porn. The differance is more then symantics.

[potthead.livejournal.com]

So a third of LJ is going to become convicted felons based on what they read and write? You sound so narrow-minded.

You drop a dime on the floor, it rolls in a spiral, then twirls to a standstill.

What are the odds that could happen the same way again? Millions, maybe trillions, to one. And yet it happened as naturally as if there were no odds against it. Every event in our lives happens as if there were no odds against it, which means our lives have operational definitions-- definitions that work for a certain series of circumstances and conditions.

What I'm saying is just because someone ships Wincest or something so trivial does not mean that said person will become a criminal. There is no formula for concocting a criminal/felon.

[potthead.livejournal.com]

Yes, it is. While I wouldn't think of jumping my sister or something, if two other siblings somewhere realllly love each other, and they both share such feelings, what's the big deal? It's their happiness and their love, and as long as no one's getting hurt, it's not a big deal. There are so many worse things a person can do than love someone with all their heart.

[bodgei.livejournal.com]

Research with convicted drug offenders has shown that 99% of them have drunk milk in the past as well. It doesn’t naturally follow.

It's a bit like saying Hockey players have a higher incidence of spousal abuse then baseball players, because Hockey is a violent sport, when, in fact, the opposite is true.

I am not saying that incest is a good thing. I'm not saying doesn’t ruin (and even end) lives. I know of lives that have been both ruined and ended because of incest. I don't read it incest fics in general. It's my choice not to read it. I have read a few, and in fact, have read at least one of the fictions in question. It was well written. That said it was an ugly, brutal fic that in NO way romanticized what was going on.

You made the choice honest to yourself by withdrawing from communities that allow incest and underage porn (but have you remember that any sex under the age of 18 would be included in this - so no High school fics). I will continue to make the choice appropriate to me (not to click on a story that says it is a Wincest fic).

My question to you is this. Should we also disallow stories involving murder? Or serial killing? Should Law and Order (and CSI and NCIS) be taken off the air? Should WB have not shown The Benders?

[bodgei.livejournal.com]

As I said in my earlier response, I don’t think rape, sexual abuse or any sort of abuse should be romanticized. I’ve read your responses to the others as well, and honestly I am sorry for everything that has happened to you. That being said, I don’t feel that you fully addressed my question to you so I will re phrase: should rape and incest be treated differently than other crimes? Criminals are often written in such a way as to romanticize the life they lead. Reading about Bonnie and Clyde doesn’t make one turn into a bank robber or a murderer (or a bisexual swinger for that matter).

Does not talking about it/ not thinking about it make you feel better? If it does then don’t read. As I said, you’ve made that choice that honors the life you lead. But I still don’t believe that putting an end to Wincest would make things significantly better in the world. And I have to admit that the equating Wincest with child porn and child abuse still confuses me, most Wincest I’ve seen takes place when both “boys” are adults, admittedly Dean does have a place in Sam’s mind as a partial parent (I would even go to the extent to say that Dean is Sam’s “beloved parent” just as Sam is John’s “Beloved son”) and therefore has some power and control over the situation, but in the end he’s still a brother, and Sam can (and has) simply walked away. As far as I can tell that is where the similarity to abuse stops.

I honestly don’t want you to feel like I’m attacking you here. I feel from your earlier responses that you are feeling attacked, and I think the whole point of this community in particular is that people be free to express their opinions. I hope that, someday, your pain lessens. I will keep you in my prayers, such as they are.

[bodgei.livejournal.com]

Six years ago a man I knew (a fellow chronic pain sufferer) made the choice to lay down in front of a train to end his pain. Think of that, the pain of being cut in half was less then the pain he lived with every day. Should the doctor that misdiagnosed his condition until it was untreatable be tried, convicted and killed? Should the Doctor that misdiagnosed my broken spine and nerve damage as a torn ligament be tried, convicted and killed?

I ask because statistically I will suffer one of three deaths heart attack (from the stress of feeling physical pain of every second of every day for the past 21 years) drug over dose (accidental- in an attempt to control pain that can not be controlled) or suicide (this is the most popular death of chronic pain sufferers)

You are saying that your pain is more valid than mine, more valid then a friend of mine who was beaten and left for dead, simply because she had a friend who was gay.

But here’s the thing. That’s not the point. Most of the fics in question are between two ADULTS, they are not adult/ child (OK so some are but most are current to the series) and NOT between a parent child.

[nakeisha.livejournal.com]

(but have you remember that any sex under the age of 18

Nothing to do with the discussion, per se, but not in the UK it wouldn't. Our law is 16.

[bodgei.livejournal.com]

an age of consent of 16 would still make a huge amount of high school sex fics "kiddy porn"... and honistly I think most high schoolers break some sort of law like that (be it sex, or drinking or going out after crefue or waht not)

the age that a person can consent to sex in the US depends on the state you live in (my state age of consent is 16) but I think if you rape someone uder the age of 18 it cound't as child abuse (even if the age of consent is 14 or 16 or whatever)... the laws in the US are often odd like that.

[nakeisha.livejournal.com]

an age of consent of 16 would still make a huge amount of high school sex fics "kiddy porn".

I'm not in any fandom where this would be an issue, I was merely picking up on the fact that 18 isn't the age of consent everywhere. As you in fact say yourself.

I'm aware the age of consent in the US differs, yes. I've seen various information. And it also differs between the sexes in the same state in places.

Very strange.

[bodgei.livejournal.com]

yes I used to live in a State that had an AoC of 14 for boys and 16 for girls.

In the US a State can pass a law that is more strict (or protective) than Fedral law, but not less. So a state can make a AoC of 12 but not 21, and could make a drinking age of 25 but not 18...

My state (just to put it out there) has an AoC of 16 unless your lover is more than 4 years older than you are, how's that for weird?

[nakeisha.livejournal.com]

yes I used to live in a State that had an AoC of 14 for boys and 16 for girls.

Interesting. Several I say on the list I have, has it the other way round!

My state (just to put it out there) has an AoC of 16 unless your lover is more than 4 years older than you are, how's that for weird?

Weird in the extreme!!!!! What about folk who happen to like older lovers? How utterly strange.

But then I do sometimes find myself thinking that laws, in all countries, make me go 'huh'?

[bodgei.livejournal.com]

My state also has a law against fishing from horseback so....

[nakeisha.livejournal.com]

Yep, pretty much says it all!

[bodgei.livejournal.com]

yes it does...

Here via metafandom

[veleda-k.livejournal.com]

And I imagine that all first degree murderers have thought about killing someone before they go out and do it. I've thought about killing people, but I am not a murderer.

I certainly see where you're coming from, but incest in fanfic is very often different from incest in real life. I'm not arguing from a moral stand point. The danger and cruelty of incest in real life is largely the huge power imbalance. Fanfic featuring two siblings close in age who have a relationship that can otherwise be seen as totally healthy doesn't have this problem.

Then, there's the breach of trust, taking a family relationship and twisting it into something hurtful. Once again, in fic with siblings close in age who both want the same thing, this doesn't quite apply.

It's perfectly reasonable that you see too much real life damage to be able to accept or enjoy fantasy-- I wouldn't tell a survivor of a shoot out that she should have to watch movies wih lots of violence-- however, no one likes being told that their taste in fiction is a sign that they're sick people in real life.

And, I should add that I've read incest stories, and even one story with child sex, and I have no more desire to sleep with my family (ew) or children (Dear god no. I'm uncomfortable at the thought of being in a relationship with anyone younger that me at all) than before.