First Amendment and all that stuff....

[trystan830.livejournal.com]

x-posted from my lj, but it's f-locked over there

*sigh*

here's the deal. as a rule, i don't read Wincest. i've read... three. and two of those? i skipped over the really squicky scene(s). and i don't write it, either. so what am i doing posting on this particular subject? the principal of the thing, and that people really should pay closer attention to what they read.

i'm not going to name names, anonimity is safe here. i've had (at least) two people on my flist (that i know of, anyway) get busted on, ragged on, insulted, nasty comments left in their various ljs because they wrote wincest, and it was properly tagged as such.

here's the deal. proper reading skills are required to read the phrase "Pairing: Sam/Dean"... or whatever your pairing may be. there's also the phrase "Rating: Adult." these are the kind of fics i just scroll right on by, don't stop, just keep going. that's the point of this information in the header. (i'm sure many many people skip over my "gen" or "Dean/OFC; NC-17" fics.)

i don't even read it; so why would i take the time to read through a fic, and then comment, "that's sick!" or "ewww!! they're doing what????" and while i believe there are some things that should not be written by sane, healthy adults, i'm not being forced to read it.

to quote one of my favourite sayings, "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" (Voltaire, it's in my sidebar at my lj)

your LJ counts as freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of expression, freedom of opinions, and freedom of thought. and as well it should be.

any kinds of fic is allowed to be posted here, as long as it has the proper header.

Comments

[bodgei.livejournal.com]

Ummm just becasue you write about soemthing dosen't mean you are going to do it...

[potthead.livejournal.com]

First, I don't ship Wincest, but your comment makes it sound like you think Wincest and child porn are the same thing, when, in fact, they're not. Just thought I'd clear that up for ya.

[litashields.livejournal.com]

And the connection between Wincest and child porn comes from where? No correlation between the two at all, thanks all the same.

[fujinsama.livejournal.com]

Linked here from a friend's LJ.

I, myself, was molested by my own father at age sixteen. It's something I still haven't gotten over. Something that I don't think I ever will get over. Although I've always been bisexual, started recognizing at age thirteen that I was attracted to girls, I've leaned far more towards the lesbian side ever since then because the thought of being touched by a man like that makes me panic. And anyone touching me, even a hand on the shoulder, without me initializing it, freaks me out.

I know it can destroy lives.

However... I read sibling incest. My Harry Potter OTP is Sirius/Regulus. I'm a fan of Magenta/Riff Raff in Rocky Horror. And Kozue/Miki in Utena is beautifully tragic to me. I don't read parent/child, or even parental figure of any sort/child. I look at the warnings and pass over them. That's what the warnings are there for. There isn't any sense in upsetting myself by reading something that will just bring back memories I'd rather push to the back of my mind.

No, sibling-cest does not bring back these memories. Because, nineteen times out of twenty, the incest is consensual. Both parties agree to it. In a way, that's healing for me, to think that for some people it is a choice and not something forced upon them. This probably makes sense only to myself. It doesn't mean that I want to have sex with a member of my family, consensually. It just means that I like reading these pairings, because for whatever reason, they touch me.

[potthead.livejournal.com]

I agree 100%. I actually don't think any of us are in the position to even judge whether some sort of sexual relationship is right or wrong because people have all levels of acceptance and stuff. If two people love each other, whether they're brothers, cousins, or whatever, if that's what they really want, then who are we to stop them? If you don't like it, then ignore it. That's what most people say. But I say that acceptance is always more effective than tolerance, but tolerance is usually the easier route for people. But yeah, it bugs me too when people leave comments like, "Ewwww" on fics that are Wincest or slash or whatever. Wtf are you doing reading that when the headings TELL you it's everything you wouldn't want to read? *facepalm*

I'm linking the flist here since obvious as your post is, there are people who really need to see this.

[trystan830.livejournal.com]

I'm linking the flist here since obvious as your post is, there are people who really need to see this.

if by this you mean you're directing people her to read this post, by all means, yes!! :D

thanks! :D

[mddevi.livejournal.com]

I agree, I've only read one, I personally don't like them too much, but I respect people who do. I always find myself opening Wincest, usually because the rating is like PG. Thanks for posting this, it needs to be understood by everyone.

[trystan830.livejournal.com]

you're very welcome.

PG rated Wincest,i suppose i could handle. a little.

[lfg1986.livejournal.com]

I don't want to get into a long discussion about Wincest and all that, but I just wanted to say that I agree w/ you about people should be able to write whatever they want and not be attacked for it. The concept of free-speech is very often overlooked in situations such as this. Nobody's forcing anyone to read something they don't want to, and it's (hopefully) clearly maked for what it is, so if you don't want to read it, then don't. But for those people who write Wincest and other not-entirely-accepted things, there's no need to people to write nasty things about what they write since it's their right to do so.

And as a side note : Can I borrow your wording on "your LJ counts as freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of expression, freedom of opinions, and freedom of thought. and as well it should be." for my own journal?? Cause I'm tired of people writing nasty things about what I say in there.

[trystan830.livejournal.com]

I agree w/ you about people should be able to write whatever they want and not be attacked for it. The concept of free-speech is very often overlooked in situations such as this. Nobody's forcing anyone to read something they don't want to, and it's (hopefully) clearly maked for what it is, so if you don't want to read it, then don't.
exactly my point. :)

and sure, feel free to borrow my wording... no prob. heh, that's pretty cool. i'm flattered. :D

[trystan830.livejournal.com]

so, i tried to do your friending meme, and only your friends can post in your lj. interesting.

[acostilow.livejournal.com]

I'ma link to this in my LJ, if you don't mind. Because you know what I went through, and you know how I feel about this entire situation. *gives you flowers*

[trystan830.livejournal.com]

sure!!

aww, thanks! :D

[lady-shain.livejournal.com]

I'm going to poke my nose into this, for all the good that it will do, since I suspect that the originator of the objection has long since decided that it's not worth reading the thread any longer.

First I need to state that I, in no way, whatsoever, support child abuse. It's a heinous crime, and I've been known to suggest that people who abuse the trust of a child and take advantage of children sexually have forfeited not only their right to freedom, but to life. I can't believe that I feel that I have to state this that blatantly, but given the sheer pig-headedness in the comments that precede this, I do feel that it needs to be said.

Reading the comments above, it seems to me that(through personal experience -and no one should have to go through this; it's a crime that you did, lia_van_helsing)the belief appears to be that all wincest in fandom involves children and is by definition, abuse.

Incest and child abuse are two different things, although they can, and often do, co-exist. Incest, in and of itself, is a societal taboo - one that was established back when the primary function of sex was seen as the production of offspring - a 'moral' crime as opposed to a crime such as sexual assualt which by definition involves injury to one party by another. Incest can be consentual - and if it is, it's my feeling that the state should stay the hell out of the bedrooms. Fundamentally, I agree with potthead - provided that the situation involves two mutually consenting adults, and does not involve the production of children (due to the high probability of birth defects), then it's not hurting anyone and why should we care?

I'm not a big fan of underage wincest. I usually avoid it. What's underage? Depends on your personal views. I defy anyone to tell me that 'kids' today don't understand sex at age 14, so my definition of 'underage' is based more on emotional maturity as opposed to state mandated ages of consent.

Whatever I've read - whether I liked it or not - it was my choice to read it - so I'm in no position to cry foul. Of course, the preceding applies only if the piece is appropriately labelled, with pairings made clear, and warnings up front. No one deserves to be broadsided with stuff that squicks them, and that they would never have read if warned beforehand.

[trystan830.livejournal.com]

actually this whole thing started really with people igorning the warnings, and reading anyway, getting squicked, and posting "ewwwww."

and i was pretty much, "read people! how hard is that! i do it!"

and this is what it morphed into. eh, stuff happens.

[laurondo.livejournal.com]

Very well said! :)

[trystan830.livejournal.com]

thank ye muchly. :D

[sabbath-darius.livejournal.com]

I completely agree. I am not a fan as well, and I don't think people should rant on and on about it. It's easy not to read. I'm glad you cna understand that. i'm linking this to my Lj thanks. Nice to have a clear mind.

[trystan830.livejournal.com]

thanks! feel free to link; thanks :)

(btw, like the icon *g*)

[adelheide.livejournal.com]

The Journal of Pediatrics just published the findings of a study where teenagers that listened to music about the objectification of sex and sexual activity were more likely to engage in risky sexual behaviors at an earlier age. The study also found that teenagers that watched violent entertainment (like WWF or graphically violent video games) were more likely to act out in a violent way. The interesting facet of this study found that girls were more affected to violent behavior than boys.

Which could speak to the social suppression of the feminine and the need to lash out against that, but that would get waaaay off topic.

The point is, any number of influences in our society can affect people and encourage them to behave in unacceptable ways. The truth is, some people aren’t too bright and are easily influenced. This is not new and not singular about our era. It’s a human trait.

I can appreciate lia_van_helsing’s perspective on incest and child abuse. As a survivor, she is going to have a much more personal and intimate understanding on the subject. She is going to “get” it in a way most of us won’t. And I can respect her decision to unsub from communities that post Wincest and child porn. She is exercising her right as a consumer (in this case, a consumer of fic) and not “purchasing” a product that she finds repugnant. Such is her right.

Because it does come down to “If you don’t like it, don’t read it.” People who can’t be bothered to read tags and warnings have no business complaining about the content. You can’t bitch that your blood pressure shot up after eating canned corn if you didn’t take a few seconds to read the label on the corn to find out that one serving has 780mg of sodium. If you can’t take the time to be an informed consumer, then you can’t complain when you get a product you don’t like.

Much like the people who want to censor what’s on television. They don’t want shows that they personally find offensive on the air. But guess what? I like violence. I like adult language. I like sexual content. I’m an adult and a responsible citizen and am under no illusions that just because someone on TV solves their problems with a rocket launcher that I should do the same. Because that is pretend. What I am looking at on television is not real, unless I’m watching a documentary or the news. I can make that divide in my mind between what is real and what is not. And I don’t appreciate people trying to tell me what I can and can’t watch. I’m a grown up. I can make those choices for myself. If you don’t like what’s on television, don’t watch it. If you don’t want your kids to watch it, use V chips and parental controls to prevent them. It really is as simple as that.

[trystan830.livejournal.com]

Because it does come down to "If you don't like it, don't read it." People who can't be bothered to read tags and warnings have no business complaining about the content.
yes, this exactly it!

I don't appreciate people trying to tell me what I can and can't watch. I'm a grown up. I can make those choices for myself. If you don't like what's on television, don't watch it. If you don't want your kids to watch it, use V chips and parental controls to prevent them. It really is as simple as that.
i really think people would rather complain and bitch about it rather than just turning it off. too easy to do that, apparently.

[adelheide.livejournal.com]

(cont.)

In that vein, I read the tags when I’m about to read a fic. I don’t like underage sex, so I don’t read it. I also don’t like violent sex. I much prefer to read stories about what goes on between consenting adults. Does that mean that I think all incest is hunky dory and fine? No. Does that mean that I think child pornography is okay? Obviously, not, since I don’t read underage sex fic of any kind. Does this mean that I’m some kind of perverted danger to society? No, because I get the difference between pretend and real. While fan fiction is that last bastion of “gonzo” literature, in that it will go places most mainstream lit won’t go, it doesn’t mean I read it all or approve of it all. However, I do understand that people have a right to express themselves. As much as I find the message of the Aryan Nation abhorrent, I understand that they have a right to say what they want. I wish they wouldn’t. I really wish they’d go away. But in a free society, you can’t have everything go your way all the time. You have to compromise.

I think the phenomena of Wincest is an interesting one, but certainly not the first one. As long as there has been fic, there has been people writing lead characters getting funky. It will always happen. In this fandom, the lead characters happen to be related. Not that first time incest has occurred in fic. But I do think it’s important to understand the dynamics in these fics are (typically) not the same dynamics found in an cases of abusive child/adult incest. And it is fiction. So it’s comparing apples and oranges in a way that doesn’t serve the argument well.

[trystan830.livejournal.com]

I do understand that people have a right to express themselves. As much as I find the message of the Aryan Nation abhorrent, I understand that they have a right to say what they want. I wish they wouldn’t. I really wish they’d go away. But in a free society, you can’t have everything go your way all the time. You have to compromise.
very good point there... and i bolded what's really the important part.

I do think it’s important to understand the dynamics in these fics are (typically) not the same dynamics found in an cases of abusive child/adult incest. And it is fiction.
yes this is the important part here too. while i've said i only read three wincest fics (and skipped over the wincest in two of 'em), i would imagine it is a different dymanic (amybe a heavy dose of RPS, and the writer changes the names?), and the important part here is it's fiction.

very well said. thanks.

[nakeisha.livejournal.com]

Here via metafandom

i don't even read it; so why would i take the time to read through a fic, and then comment, "that's sick!" or "ewww!! they're doing what????" and while i believe there are some things that should not be written by sane, healthy adults, i'm not being forced to read it.

::Applauds wildly:: You have no idea how many times I've said this. And I'm still puzzled as to why people deliberately go out of their way to read stuff they *know* they hate, or authors they don't like, just so they can deride it. But believe me, I know of people who do this very thing. They choose to read stuff they know they'll dislike over stuff they know they'll like.

[trystan830.livejournal.com]

thank you. :D

They choose to read stuff they know they'll dislike over stuff they know they'll like.
wtf? i read (and write) fic for *enjoyment*!! why would i read/write it if i didn't like it?

*boggles*